"It depends on many factors - mainly where they are grown, the weather for the given vintage, and how long the grapes are allowed to ripen."
The key here is acidity levels. If a red wine has higher acidity, the pH shifts the color of the wine to ruby red, and the flavors shift to red fruit/"brighter" and "fresher" fruit flavors. As the acidity lowers, the pH shifts the color of the wine to blue-purple, offering first dark red (black cherry) then blue fruit (blueberry) then finally black fruit (blackberry, cassis).
So you can always know the acidity level of a red wine from the color alone - red = high, red-blue = medium, blue-purple = low. And the fruit flavors shift to match the color aka the acidity.
Thanks Dave. I always love our interactions! It's interesting as whenever I write about frequency people associate it with the wine's acidity. But this doesn't fit a classic Cabernet Sauvignon from Bordeaux that typically has a lot of black fruit and is definitely high acidity. I need to adjust my terminology.
IS the acidity "high", though? If there's a mixture of red-black fruit, then the acidity will be medium-ish more than high. Are we sure we're not free associating how much acidity is actually present, and/or what flavors we're experiencing? If we stood it directly next to a wine with red fruit and high aciidity or a wine with black fruit and low acidity, would it actually be what we say it is? Or even better, if we looked at the pH, would that be accurate to what we think we're experiencing?
The acidity and red fruit / black fruit connection is pretty well established. 2020 Bordeaux was known for high pH/low acidity (3.6 - 3.85, very black fruit). While other years it was a bit closer to 3.5 so shifting toward red. You can track the acidity shift with the fruit shift every time.
In reply to: "Are we sure we're not free associating how much acidity is actually present, and/or what flavors we're experiencing?" The article is about what is experienced on the palate. It doesn't mention acidity. Which is why I think it is interesting that you (and others in past articles) bring up acidity.
In your comment: "The acidity and red fruit / black fruit connection is pretty well established." Are you talking about what we are experiencing on the palate?
Thanks for the dialogue Dave! I want to understand this as communication/proper word usage is obviously important! And I think I am not using the right words.
So, yes, I'm talking about what we experience on the palate, as acidity plays a major role in this. (otherwise we're claiming it has no role in what we taste, which would be weird.)
Acidity / pH goes hand in hand with the phenolic ripeness of the grapes, or - even if the winery is adding acidifiers later, that will still shift the flavor profile, and overall perceived style of the wine.
If you pour a red wine in a vacuum, it's true that most people will not agree if it's more red or black or blue/black cherry (a mix of both) fruit. But put red wines of different acidity levels next to each other, and there is a near-consensus as to which is red fruit, and which are black fruit (and which are in the middle, a mixture of each.) And those flavors correspond neatly with acidity levels.
I know this is bringing in science to palate talk, but wine is ultimately half science, and the science helps us communicate broad stylistic elements between our otherwise subjective and difficult to pin down palates. Does any of that make more sense? Or less?
There is legitimate chemistry behind the idea that pH influences red wine color—lower pH generally favors brighter red anthocyanin expression, while higher pH can shift color somewhat toward darker/purpler hues. However, the relationship is far from deterministic in actual wine. Research and standard wine chemistry texts make clear that color is also heavily affected by grape variety, anthocyanin concentration, extraction, copigmentation, tannin binding, oxidation, and age. For that reason, color alone is not considered a reliable proxy for acidity.
If it were I would have done better in my diploma tasting exams. 🤣 We never talked about colour in diploma classes as a relationship to acidity as it is perceived on the palate. Most of my teachers were MWs.
Hey Dave! This would be true if phenolic ripeness correlated to "sugar/acid" ripeness but they are actually two separate things. I will send you some really great visualizations that a colleague sent me. Unfortunately cannot post them here... good material for a future article!
"It depends on many factors - mainly where they are grown, the weather for the given vintage, and how long the grapes are allowed to ripen."
The key here is acidity levels. If a red wine has higher acidity, the pH shifts the color of the wine to ruby red, and the flavors shift to red fruit/"brighter" and "fresher" fruit flavors. As the acidity lowers, the pH shifts the color of the wine to blue-purple, offering first dark red (black cherry) then blue fruit (blueberry) then finally black fruit (blackberry, cassis).
So you can always know the acidity level of a red wine from the color alone - red = high, red-blue = medium, blue-purple = low. And the fruit flavors shift to match the color aka the acidity.
Thanks Dave. I always love our interactions! It's interesting as whenever I write about frequency people associate it with the wine's acidity. But this doesn't fit a classic Cabernet Sauvignon from Bordeaux that typically has a lot of black fruit and is definitely high acidity. I need to adjust my terminology.
IS the acidity "high", though? If there's a mixture of red-black fruit, then the acidity will be medium-ish more than high. Are we sure we're not free associating how much acidity is actually present, and/or what flavors we're experiencing? If we stood it directly next to a wine with red fruit and high aciidity or a wine with black fruit and low acidity, would it actually be what we say it is? Or even better, if we looked at the pH, would that be accurate to what we think we're experiencing?
The acidity and red fruit / black fruit connection is pretty well established. 2020 Bordeaux was known for high pH/low acidity (3.6 - 3.85, very black fruit). While other years it was a bit closer to 3.5 so shifting toward red. You can track the acidity shift with the fruit shift every time.
In reply to: "Are we sure we're not free associating how much acidity is actually present, and/or what flavors we're experiencing?" The article is about what is experienced on the palate. It doesn't mention acidity. Which is why I think it is interesting that you (and others in past articles) bring up acidity.
In your comment: "The acidity and red fruit / black fruit connection is pretty well established." Are you talking about what we are experiencing on the palate?
Thanks for the dialogue Dave! I want to understand this as communication/proper word usage is obviously important! And I think I am not using the right words.
So, yes, I'm talking about what we experience on the palate, as acidity plays a major role in this. (otherwise we're claiming it has no role in what we taste, which would be weird.)
Acidity / pH goes hand in hand with the phenolic ripeness of the grapes, or - even if the winery is adding acidifiers later, that will still shift the flavor profile, and overall perceived style of the wine.
If you pour a red wine in a vacuum, it's true that most people will not agree if it's more red or black or blue/black cherry (a mix of both) fruit. But put red wines of different acidity levels next to each other, and there is a near-consensus as to which is red fruit, and which are black fruit (and which are in the middle, a mixture of each.) And those flavors correspond neatly with acidity levels.
I know this is bringing in science to palate talk, but wine is ultimately half science, and the science helps us communicate broad stylistic elements between our otherwise subjective and difficult to pin down palates. Does any of that make more sense? Or less?
There is legitimate chemistry behind the idea that pH influences red wine color—lower pH generally favors brighter red anthocyanin expression, while higher pH can shift color somewhat toward darker/purpler hues. However, the relationship is far from deterministic in actual wine. Research and standard wine chemistry texts make clear that color is also heavily affected by grape variety, anthocyanin concentration, extraction, copigmentation, tannin binding, oxidation, and age. For that reason, color alone is not considered a reliable proxy for acidity.
If it were I would have done better in my diploma tasting exams. 🤣 We never talked about colour in diploma classes as a relationship to acidity as it is perceived on the palate. Most of my teachers were MWs.
Hey Dave! This would be true if phenolic ripeness correlated to "sugar/acid" ripeness but they are actually two separate things. I will send you some really great visualizations that a colleague sent me. Unfortunately cannot post them here... good material for a future article!